Curse

Tuna · Sep 01, 2005, 03:12 AM // 03:12

Its labeled RPG because it is a fantasy setting and you level up a character. It does have RPG elements, they just aren't the focus of the game. Calling this a CORPG was really just another advertising stunt to get more people to buy it.

AtomicMew · Sep 01, 2005, 03:16 AM // 03:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aniewiel

Sayshina: Try to keep to the topic. This is not a political forum and using either party's representatives to "prove" your point is not germaine to the discussion of a game. The post above is not the first one in which you've used a political "slam" to illustrate your point about a....game.

If you want to make political noise, please head off to the DNC or RNC websites and/or any number of websites for radio talk show hosts du jour.

Your debate tactics are decent except for that minor point.

Thanks.

Sayshina, excellent points.

Aniewiel, the aforementioned was not to an attempt to make "political noise," but to draw relevance from an analagous situation. I don't know if discussing "politics" is against the CoC of this site, but there is nothing weak about his "debate tactics."

AtomicMew · Sep 01, 2005, 03:19 AM // 03:19

Quote:

Its labeled RPG because it is a fantasy setting and you level up a character.

Thats a common misconception. A fantasy setting and a leveling-up game model does not an RPG make.

Tuna · Sep 01, 2005, 03:28 AM // 03:28

It does if you're trying to sell as many copies to the widest variety of fans possible.

Aniewiel · Sep 01, 2005, 03:39 AM // 03:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

I don't know if discussing "politics" is against the CoC of this site, but there is nothing weak about his "debate tactics."

This is a gaming site. Political discussions belong elsewhere on the 'Net.

And I never said that his points were weak. Quite the opposite, in fact. I said that they were decent but for the political reference with regard to a game. Political analogy to a PC game is ... odd.

Shadowdaemon · Sep 01, 2005, 09:38 AM // 09:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

Thats a common misconception. A fantasy setting and a leveling-up game model does not an RPG make.

well rpg means Role Playing Game if i am not mistaken, so i would say any game where you have some sort of character could be considered an rpg, and i have seen many games where you make no type of choices whatsover, just leveling a character, and they are labeled as rpg's

Yamat · Sep 01, 2005, 08:40 PM // 20:40

You can't be good at something without spending some time doing it. If a person buys GW and out of the box wants to create a PvP Me/N because his friend/guild mate says they need one for Tombs, whether or not he has all the skills unlocked or not, he is still going to suck and I don't want him in my team.

The PvE part of the game gives you the time to learn how to use some of the skills, understand builds, work in a team and maybe pick up some runes/items. Even with UAS, if you completed the game once all the way through doing every quest as a W/Mo and then moved to full time PvP, the day you play anything other than a W/Mo you will suck.

PvE and PvP need to stay connected. I would prefer a "PvP only" character slot, rather than it taking up one of my 4 slots, but we don't have that so I have to make do with what I do have.

I enjoy PvE and PvP, but while I'll change some of my skills around to suit a team build, I'm not joining a PvP team to be told what build to have and go get it/come back. If I join as an Ele, it's because I want to play in a team as an Ele, not to be told to go and get a Mo. That is hardcore PvP and a definite minority of the people playing this game.

PvP is not broken because of no UAS. Just recruit the primary professions you need for your guild. With help from a guild, getting elites takes no time at all... hell I just do it with henchies!

Sciros Darkblade · Sep 01, 2005, 08:47 PM // 20:47

In any case, if you've read the interview with James Phinney over at IGN that talks about PVPX, he mentions the Unlock All Skills button, and basically makes it clear that it's NOT going to happen. However, he does say that the speed at which people unlock stuff will be greatly increased, and subsequently monitored for improvements/adjustments.

So, let's be optimistic about this. So far I haven't had any real legitimate reason to yell at ANet, other than that price reset which reset to a WAY TOO LOW sum for Ectoplasms and such. But, that was a learning experience for them, and I think that if price resets happen in the future, they won't be as dramatic for some of the items, since it lets people near-monopolize them at little cost for a time.

AtomicMew · Sep 01, 2005, 08:59 PM // 20:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadowdaemon

well rpg means Role Playing Game if i am not mistaken, so i would say any game where you have some sort of character could be considered an rpg, and i have seen many games where you make no type of choices whatsover, just leveling a character, and they are labeled as rpg's

So you're saying because I can drive a Humvee in Halo, it's a racing game?

Sciros Darkblade · Sep 01, 2005, 09:01 PM // 21:01

It's a Warthog -_- I doubt it has anything to do with AM General

Nasenbluten · Sep 02, 2005, 01:42 AM // 01:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weezer_Blue

The problem is that you bought the game expecting Free World of Warcraft while the game was intended to be it's on genre and gameplay style. Yes, there was a lot of hype about the PvE part of the game as well, but it was very clear that the game was marketted towards the PvP crowd. While you may find one or two quotes about the dynamic questing system or the interactive terrain (which would affect PvP as well, if not more), I can find videos and interviews all about this "competitive" online RPG.

ok let me explain a little more clear for you "not so bright one's" and yes i know that you were speaking to the OP and not i, ok....i bought this game WAAAAY before i even thought about playing WoW, i had heard alot about WoW and it had made me leary of playing it because of the imature players,etc....etc, when i first bought the game i thought nice a game with less grind, no race to get to lvl 60....65...70...100, just level at youre own will.GREAT
ok...3 characters later and 100 hours+ of farming to get some armor that was the exact same as drok's armor for 2 characters, do the same EXACT quests 4 times to get skills to use in PvP in the SAME 4 Arena's with the same "type" of nubs that attack the ele instead of the monk thats healing that ele.Or wait better yet use it to go to the tombs and group with a bunch of people on Vent or Ts who scream at people who don't follow their orders, the orders of a 12 year old boy who sound like a female.oh joy!!.Like i said no thanks ill pay the fee for WoW and play in the BG if i Like PvP and get a 10vs 10 match instead of 4v4 in the same arena that i played 2 minutes ago with the nub team.

as i had said numerous times, no content
NO CONTENT
jeez i wish i could punch this into a-nets brain
NO CONTENT
the game is great, the graphics are great the control is great,but for christ's sake add some....

C-O-N-T-E-N-T
i'll bet anyone 10 gold on WoW that within the next year this game will be just another dust collector on everyones desktop.

I may be 1 person complaining, but im sure theres alto more who didn't even bother to post here and just went to another game, i loved this game, i loved everything about it, and it angers me how they can let such a great game lose playability so fast,the most we've seen for updates is nerfs to farming.no new monsters, bosses,races,spells,skills,classes. yes i understand it's a new game but crap, at a level 20 cap you think at release they'd have something planned for an update knowing how obsessive people are with online games. oh well,probably wasting my breath, or fingers in this case

most of you who disagree with this post either..

A) Have'nt been playing long enough to get tired of the content
B)Don't Play enough to get tired of the content

oh ant btw Darkness falls was the first pay to play on AoL i know because i played it, im old school mmorpg and that was back in 93...94 if i remember correct and it was like play per hour lol

AtomicMew · Sep 02, 2005, 02:31 AM // 02:31

Exactly. This game has so much potential for PvE/RPG content. Why is ANet ignoring this?

Sanji · Sep 02, 2005, 02:32 AM // 02:32

I have a hard time thinking of many Roleplaying games that lasted me more than 100 hours. I have an even harder time imagining what you wanted out of Guild Wars in the first place.

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

Exactly. This game has so much potential for PvE/RPG content. Why is ANet ignoring this?

They aren't. They're releasing two free dungeons on the 7th. They are also releasing expansions. Don't expect Guild Wars to go toe to toe with an MMORPG with free content patches.

AtomicMew · Sep 02, 2005, 02:53 AM // 02:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sanji

I have a hard time thinking of many Roleplaying games that lasted me more than 100 hours. I have an even harder time imagining what you wanted out of Guild Wars in the first place.

I've already outlined exactly what I want. Basically, at the very least, I want non-garbage plot, and non-garbage voice acting. Simply to bring the PvE part of this game to an ACCEPTABLE level.

Quote:

They're releasing two free dungeons on the 7th. They are also releasing expansions. Don't expect Guild Wars to go toe to toe with an MMORPG with free content patches.

Why not? ANet has probably already made a ton of money. Server maintanance is also MUCH MUCH less than comparable RPGs. So why the hell not?

Sanji · Sep 02, 2005, 03:04 AM // 03:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

I've already outlined exactly what I want. Basically, at the very least, I want non-garbage plot, and non-garbage voice acting. Simply to bring the PvE part of this game to an ACCEPTABLE level.

I seriously doubt they're going to rerecord the game's dialogue and retroactively change the plot of the game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

Why not? ANet has probably already made a ton of money. Server maintanance is also MUCH MUCH less than comparable RPGs. So why the hell not?

From the game site:

Players may choose to support future development of the game and expand their own playing experiences by purchasing new chapters of the Guild Wars story. These chapters will be offered about every six to nine months, and will be competitively priced. Unlike most "expansion packs," the new chapters will be approximately equal in size to the initial chapter of Guild Wars.

So, yeah. If you want ever-expanding content comparable to an MMORPG, you got to pay for it one way or another. Thems the breaks, I guess.

Sayshina · Sep 02, 2005, 03:11 AM // 03:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yamat

You can't be good at something without spending some time doing it. If a person buys GW and out of the box ... whether or not he has all the skills unlocked or not, he is still going to suck ...

No arguement so far, although you're going someplace I can't agree with.

Quote:

The PvE part of the game gives you the time to learn how to use some of the skills, understand builds, work in a team and ... Even with UAS, if you completed the game once all the way through doing every quest as a W/Mo and then moved to full time PvP, the day you play anything other than a W/Mo you will suck.

And right there is where you lose me. I would strongly argue that you can finish the game 7 times with a W/Mo, and you will STILL SUCK when you go into PvP. As I've said elsewhere, PvP and PvE take fundamentaly differing mindsets. They are not compatible skills, and you CAN'T learn one from the other. There is no player you can face off against that will teach you the skills needed to utilize the "invinci-monk" or the racing skills needed to rush to Droknar's. There is no monster, or game area, that will teach you how to face a real live human being.

Quote:

I enjoy PvE and PvP, but while I'll change some of my skills around to suit a team build, I'm not joining a PvP team to be told what build to have and go get it/come back. If I join as an Ele, it's because I want to play in a team as an Ele, not to be told to go and get a Mo. That is hardcore PvP and a definite minority of the people playing this game.

Sadly, you are more and more correct with each day. There are very few hardcore PvP players remaining, so this is what you get. The idea that you can just show up with whatever build you happen to "want" to play, and have everyone else on your team do the same, is antithetical to the competitive spirit.

Allow me to illustrate. Without mentioning anything remotely political. While I was in college I played in a few pick up football games. Most of the kids playing had never done so for an organized team, in highschool or anywhere else. The results? 1 Quarterback, 2 or 3 offensive linemen, and everyone else a wide receiver. I counted heads and noticed we were playing 11 on 11, which is what you're supposed to have. Did we really NEED 7 - 8 guys all running back and forth down the field, with their hands up shouting to throw it to them? I'm 5'10", and was about 180 back then. And I was playing center because NOBODY else would. I tried to point out that we had enough players to play a pro style offense. Nobody wanted to hear it. EVERYBODY wanted to be one of the FAMOUS guys.

If you are not willing to take one for the team, if you won't play defense because you only want to score kills, if you won't play the sacrificial lamb when a team build requires one, then you have no business being on a team. I would argue that you don't really understand what it means to BE on a team. I was pretty damned young the first time my coach cussed me out. The ball was coming at my head like a missile, which was the first time that had ever happened, and I couldn't help myself. I ducked. The coach made sure that NEVER happened again, not just for me but for any of the other kids either.

PvP is not broken because of no UAS. Just recruit the primary professions you need for your guild.[/QUOTE]

I see people doing this, and I am always amazed. That is a truly horrible idea. Well, I suppose it's fine if you never plan on being competitive. You should NEVER recruit toon, ALWAYS recruit people. Actualy, I've only been in 2 guilds (the ones I made myself just to stop all the invited don't count) and neither did any recruiting of any kind. I suspect that if you do have to recruit that you have already doomed yourself, and would be better off not trying to start a new guild.

But in any case, you MUST have the proper players to have a prayer, and those players MUST have the proper mindset to allow you to be competitive. Yes, you will still need to practice, not just with various builds, but also with each others timing and personalities. Even if you've settled down on a certain team strategy, you still need to practice it together. And NONE of this can happen in PvE. That's why you saw so many daughter guilds on the ladder, because all of the better guilds used them for practice.

Whatever the reason for PvP being broken, to argue that there's nothing wrong with it is to ignore the facts. If it were perfect, or even if there was some reasonable hope of it being decent (not perfect, just decent) in the future, most of those departed hardcore PvP types would not have left. The people came, tried it out, and found it wanting. To argue that there was something wrong with all of them (which is what the standard RP arguement amounts to) and nothing wrong with the game is to make a point that no reasonable man should be able to buy into.

The players left. Anet started faction, and the players left even faster. Anet anounced future increases in faction, and there weren't many players left to hear.

I have NEVER argued that all of this isn't what Anet "intended" to give us. The position that I have maintained is that Anet's stance is flawed, and hopelessly so. No matter what they do to PvP they will NEVER make it truly appealing to the carebears, which is all that is left. No matter what they did to PvE, they would NEVER make it anything that a PvP type would want to get stuck in. We might enjoy it a bit if we could take it or leave it, but I for one work for a living. The very LAST thing I want to do after a hard days work is come online and be forced to put in some "effort". PvP can be work, but it's something that I enjoy. It's the joy of beating an equaly skilled human being. It may be hard, but there is a reward involved. I realize there are many who get that reward from discovering whatever new rune, or finaly capturing some new elite skill. I realize there are people who feel that way, but I can't say I understand them. To me those things are nothing but tools, and I find no more joy in aquiring them than I do in buying a new drill.

With this game Anet set forth 2 theories it wished to test.

1: That Role Players and PvP'ers were really one and the same, that we were all just "gamers" and if "encouraged" to intermingle would eventualy become one big happy family.

2: That it was possible to create a dynamic online environment with updates at regular intervals that did NOT operate on a subscription basis.

Anet has utterly failed at theory 1. The ONLY thing left to discover is whether it has also failed at theory 2. The PvP aspect of this game is dead, and I can see no realistic way of reviving it. If they leave it alone, it will most likely continue to draw casual interest from a few of the RP types, but now that they know what they're in for no real PvP player in their right mind will buy this game.

There is no reason to spend ANY more attention on PvP, as there is simply nothing they can do to fix it. There are a few left who would argue for UAS, or separation, or some other "fix". But none of this can possibly address the ultimate issue, that the players are no longer there to take advantage of it. I have a friend who's pissed at me for getting her into this game, and I payed for her copy.

PvP is a lost cause, but PvE could potentialy be fixed. If they decided to forget about PvP, and focus solely on providing for the carebears, they MIGHT be able to dish up enough easter eggs to get the chapter based revenue play working. This would most likely mean drastic changes like level increases, but with PvP a total failure I really don't see what's so horrible about making what's left of the player base happy.

As an aside to the mod: While you may find it odd to use a reference from politics in a game discussion, there are in reality very few things that CAN be referenced. If a person references another game, he generaly gets counter arguements about either that game, or some third game that supports a different theory. If one wishes to reference outside of computer games, one MUST obviously find something to reference that is universal, or at least nearly so. It does no good to reference some movie if it's not going to play where in the readers country for another year, if ever. This leaves very little with which to work.

However, no matter where one happens to reside, it is highly likely that he has seen and heard the quote which I chose to reference. Most inhabitants of this world have at least some idea of what's going on in that part of the world, and this is the PRIMARY requirement in making an analogy.

I admit I wear my politics on my sleeve, and as it clearly irritates you I will attempt to keep quiet about my regard for our humble and greatly respected president.

Sagius Truthbarron · Sep 02, 2005, 03:44 AM // 03:44

Quote:

Pay to play is a brand new idea, up until a few months ago it wasn't even on the radar. Before that time EVERY GAME was sold up front, JUST LIKE THIS GAME.

As far as I can tell, this is the first retail non-monthly-fee MMORPG ever made.

Even that Xbox is charging you to play their games online, and it's console o.o (started, what, 4 years ago?)

AtomicMew · Sep 02, 2005, 03:53 AM // 03:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sanji

I seriously doubt they're going to rerecord the game's dialogue and retroactively change the plot of the game.

Wow. How is that statement relevant at all. Of course I don't expect that. I'm talking about in the future.

Quote:

So, yeah. If you want ever-expanding content comparable to an MMORPG, you got to pay for it one way or another. Thems the breaks, I guess.

What are you talking about?
I already knew that. I don't want ever-expanding content, however, I want DECENT content that an respectable RPG should have. If the expansions (starting with the summer update) show promise, I'll buy them. I'm not demanding anything for free.

Why are you even arguing with me when you aren't even addressing what I'm saying?

Sanji · Sep 02, 2005, 04:04 AM // 04:04

Nothing really to address other than it seems like you want the wrong things out of the wrong game. Also, I'd like to know these "respectable" games you're playing that provide you with more gameplay than Guild Wars without a monthly fee.

Console RPGs fall short, and besides tread-millathons like Diablo 2, where you pretty much just repeat the game three times, I don't think I can recall any co-op PC RPGs off the top of my head that can compare.

AtomicMew · Sep 02, 2005, 04:12 AM // 04:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sanji

Nothing really to address other than it seems like you want the wrong things out of the wrong game. Also, I'd like to know these "respectable" games you're playing that provide you with more gameplay than Guild Wars without a monthly fee.

Console RPGs fall short, and besides stuff like Diablo 2, where you pretty much just repeat the game three times, I don't think I can recall any PC RPGs off the top of my head.

Console RPGs fall short? No PC RPGs? What?... what? Even some pre 90's RPGs I've spent more time on than I ever will spend on the current Guild Wars PvE.
Diablo-esque games are also not what I'm looking for.